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	<title>Comments on: Brain-Off, Mouth Open: Tom Grover Misses the Point</title>
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	<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350</link>
	<description>The Life and Happenings of C. Rick Koerber</description>
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		<title>By: the porq</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-749</link>
		<dc:creator>the porq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-749</guid>
		<description>&quot;He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.&quot; 

                                  - United States Declaration of Independence</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.&#8221; </p>
<p>                                  &#8211; United States Declaration of Independence</p>
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		<title>By: Tom M</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-748</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 01:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-748</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve got to be kidding - redress in today&#039;s courts???  Not too likely anymore.  Look who is overseeing &quot;justice&quot; in Utah - General Shurtleff for starters, and other prosecutors who despise our Constitution and justice as our courts once defended it (according to their actions, not their hollow words).

Take this little justice integrity test.  Ask any prosecutor in Utah (or elsewhere) including General Shurtleff (commander in chief) why they refuse to denounce and pursue the great flood of criminal activity in the mode of false abuse and false rape allegations.  Yes, it&#039;s huge.  We can&#039;t find one of them who can pass this most simple and basic of integrity litmus tests.  We can&#039;t find one who will both denounce and pursue it to its ends.  

Some responses from the field (prosecutor and AG offices) go as follows:  &quot;What false abuse and rape allegations, where???&quot;  The deluge of of false rape and especially false abuse allegations is very, very well documented.  This includes that about 50% of rape allegations are eventually admitted by later distraught false accusers to be just that - false.  They admit that they committed these vile abuse crimes to abuse and manipulate THEIR male victims...  That could never happen, right? Our prosecutors WOULD care, right?

Yet, no redress from our prosecutors and AG&#039;s here either.  What you don&#039;t oppose, you support.  It&#039;s a felony to make false abuse and rape allegations, yet our prosecutors support it and refuse to denounce it or prosecute this wave of crime.  Another answer some prosecutors&#039; offices give for doing this goes something like, &quot;Very few female victims ever lie, your stats are out of whack, you&#039;re just quoting wild propaganda about women lying...&quot;  &quot;Women don&#039;t pretend to be victims, they can only BE victims and accused men can only BE perpetrators...&quot;  

They ramrod Alice in Wonderland Justice - pass the sentence first and latter create and find &quot;evidence&quot; to support a verdict to match the sentence already given.  &quot;If a woman says she is a victim we must believe her and prosecute to the full extent of the law.&quot;  &quot;To not believe her is to further abuse her...&quot;  &quot;If we were to prosecute known and proven false accusers (women) the real victims (women only...) would stop reporting abuse and rape for fear of being prosecuted...&quot;  &quot;We can&#039;t prove any of the very few false abuse and rape allegations were made with malicious, false intent to defraud anyway...&quot;   Now, who is really defrauding whom here anyway? 

Yet, 85% of restraining and protective orders issued for female &quot;victims&quot; are admitted by the women themselves to not involve any abuse (!!! they are actually the predators themselves, yet the only protected ones), at least not any abuse committed on their male partner&#039;s part.  False allegations ARE abuse, making up 85% of abuse allegations which are drama and criminal abuse used to manipulate and get what they want.  Who is that abusing, besides the system which promotes and rewards them for doing this in the first place?  This makes money, loads of money, for this system gone against the people.  Why prosecute your partners in crime??? Why would they make any rash moves to take away such a big money-maker for themselves and all their buddies in crime?  

Maybe you just can&#039;t get justice or your fair day in court on any of this unless you are very lucky and or have lots of money to pay homage to the &quot;Justice&quot; Gods... I hear of partial justice on part of these matters once in a while though.  To suggest real and complete justice is equally available and not for sale is simply a joke, though our prosecutors and AG&#039;s suggest we try to obtain justice through their mess anyway.  They know you can&#039;t bust them to get real justice when they are the real perps holding all the cards today anyway.  

When it is so well documented that so many prosecutors and AG&#039;s across the nation support all of this criminal activity, it can only make you wonder what else they might be up to. 

Oh, and, Happy 4th of July General Shurtleff, and your Cache County Assistant AG whom so many likewise complain about for the same reasons.

I&#039;ve seen too many law students come to support the justice rhetoric and corruptness Mr. Grover now subscribes to, touting the &quot;fact&quot; that you can still get justice in court by simply following the steps that &quot;won&#039;t cost you anything...&quot;  &quot;Justice is our basic right.&quot;  No, &quot;Justice is the most costly of all commodities when organized crime takes it over.&quot;  That&#039;s the effect of brainwashing. Justice is not free, for sure.  You pay homage to the &quot;justice Gods or their wrath WILL thunder donw upon you mere ants.   But I do agree with much of the other points Tom Grover has made over the years.  Just not on his comments as a whole this time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve got to be kidding &#8211; redress in today&#8217;s courts???  Not too likely anymore.  Look who is overseeing &#8220;justice&#8221; in Utah &#8211; General Shurtleff for starters, and other prosecutors who despise our Constitution and justice as our courts once defended it (according to their actions, not their hollow words).</p>
<p>Take this little justice integrity test.  Ask any prosecutor in Utah (or elsewhere) including General Shurtleff (commander in chief) why they refuse to denounce and pursue the great flood of criminal activity in the mode of false abuse and false rape allegations.  Yes, it&#8217;s huge.  We can&#8217;t find one of them who can pass this most simple and basic of integrity litmus tests.  We can&#8217;t find one who will both denounce and pursue it to its ends.  </p>
<p>Some responses from the field (prosecutor and AG offices) go as follows:  &#8220;What false abuse and rape allegations, where???&#8221;  The deluge of of false rape and especially false abuse allegations is very, very well documented.  This includes that about 50% of rape allegations are eventually admitted by later distraught false accusers to be just that &#8211; false.  They admit that they committed these vile abuse crimes to abuse and manipulate THEIR male victims&#8230;  That could never happen, right? Our prosecutors WOULD care, right?</p>
<p>Yet, no redress from our prosecutors and AG&#8217;s here either.  What you don&#8217;t oppose, you support.  It&#8217;s a felony to make false abuse and rape allegations, yet our prosecutors support it and refuse to denounce it or prosecute this wave of crime.  Another answer some prosecutors&#8217; offices give for doing this goes something like, &#8220;Very few female victims ever lie, your stats are out of whack, you&#8217;re just quoting wild propaganda about women lying&#8230;&#8221;  &#8220;Women don&#8217;t pretend to be victims, they can only BE victims and accused men can only BE perpetrators&#8230;&#8221;  </p>
<p>They ramrod Alice in Wonderland Justice &#8211; pass the sentence first and latter create and find &#8220;evidence&#8221; to support a verdict to match the sentence already given.  &#8220;If a woman says she is a victim we must believe her and prosecute to the full extent of the law.&#8221;  &#8220;To not believe her is to further abuse her&#8230;&#8221;  &#8220;If we were to prosecute known and proven false accusers (women) the real victims (women only&#8230;) would stop reporting abuse and rape for fear of being prosecuted&#8230;&#8221;  &#8220;We can&#8217;t prove any of the very few false abuse and rape allegations were made with malicious, false intent to defraud anyway&#8230;&#8221;   Now, who is really defrauding whom here anyway? </p>
<p>Yet, 85% of restraining and protective orders issued for female &#8220;victims&#8221; are admitted by the women themselves to not involve any abuse (!!! they are actually the predators themselves, yet the only protected ones), at least not any abuse committed on their male partner&#8217;s part.  False allegations ARE abuse, making up 85% of abuse allegations which are drama and criminal abuse used to manipulate and get what they want.  Who is that abusing, besides the system which promotes and rewards them for doing this in the first place?  This makes money, loads of money, for this system gone against the people.  Why prosecute your partners in crime??? Why would they make any rash moves to take away such a big money-maker for themselves and all their buddies in crime?  </p>
<p>Maybe you just can&#8217;t get justice or your fair day in court on any of this unless you are very lucky and or have lots of money to pay homage to the &#8220;Justice&#8221; Gods&#8230; I hear of partial justice on part of these matters once in a while though.  To suggest real and complete justice is equally available and not for sale is simply a joke, though our prosecutors and AG&#8217;s suggest we try to obtain justice through their mess anyway.  They know you can&#8217;t bust them to get real justice when they are the real perps holding all the cards today anyway.  </p>
<p>When it is so well documented that so many prosecutors and AG&#8217;s across the nation support all of this criminal activity, it can only make you wonder what else they might be up to. </p>
<p>Oh, and, Happy 4th of July General Shurtleff, and your Cache County Assistant AG whom so many likewise complain about for the same reasons.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen too many law students come to support the justice rhetoric and corruptness Mr. Grover now subscribes to, touting the &#8220;fact&#8221; that you can still get justice in court by simply following the steps that &#8220;won&#8217;t cost you anything&#8230;&#8221;  &#8220;Justice is our basic right.&#8221;  No, &#8220;Justice is the most costly of all commodities when organized crime takes it over.&#8221;  That&#8217;s the effect of brainwashing. Justice is not free, for sure.  You pay homage to the &#8220;justice Gods or their wrath WILL thunder donw upon you mere ants.   But I do agree with much of the other points Tom Grover has made over the years.  Just not on his comments as a whole this time.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-745</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-745</guid>
		<description>Tom&#039;s article had nothing to do with AG Shurtleff.  That&#039;s just silly.  Also, the photo you are talking about is of Rep. Carl Wimmer.  

Tom Grover is a fair minded, decent human being, unlike the unethical Piker who has doesn&#039;t have a clue who Tom Grover is.  BTW, Tom doesn&#039;t decide what comments stay or go on KVNU&#039;s blog, the station employees do. 

Just wondering, any new indictments today?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom&#8217;s article had nothing to do with AG Shurtleff.  That&#8217;s just silly.  Also, the photo you are talking about is of Rep. Carl Wimmer.  </p>
<p>Tom Grover is a fair minded, decent human being, unlike the unethical Piker who has doesn&#8217;t have a clue who Tom Grover is.  BTW, Tom doesn&#8217;t decide what comments stay or go on KVNU&#8217;s blog, the station employees do. </p>
<p>Just wondering, any new indictments today?</p>
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		<title>By: The Piker</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-742</link>
		<dc:creator>The Piker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-742</guid>
		<description>Grover is just running interference for his &quot;buddy&quot; Shurtleff.  Wimmer has been caught in some inconsistencies so Grover is using this to detract attention away from Shurtleff.  It&#039;s obvious from his article he has not idea how the Dept of Commernce works and to whom they are accountable.  It&#039;s probably premature to be alleging some type of gov-LE-agency scandal, but if you are (as Grover does) Shurtleff would necessarily be worth more than a mere mention.   Given his career path, I suppose it&#039;s much easier to direct the outrage at a legislator who is in no position give you a job like the A.G.  

The truth is that brain off does not begin to describe Grover.  His favorite pastime is to join the dogpile of any scandal with his half-baked facts, analysis and pious sermons.  I don&#039;t know anyone who takes him seriously.  Furthermore he is incredibly thin-skinned.  I wrote a response to his article and he had it taken down.  He&#039;s great at dishing it out, but a coward when it comes to taking it. 

Two points by the way:
1. Grover is no longer a libertarian.  He&#039;s a pro-illegal immigration, pro-gay marriage, new age/moderate Republican.  Shocking isn&#039;t it? 

2. The picture you have of him on this article&#039;s header must be 10 years old.  He&#039;s now a disheveled, fat, slob.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grover is just running interference for his &#8220;buddy&#8221; Shurtleff.  Wimmer has been caught in some inconsistencies so Grover is using this to detract attention away from Shurtleff.  It&#8217;s obvious from his article he has not idea how the Dept of Commernce works and to whom they are accountable.  It&#8217;s probably premature to be alleging some type of gov-LE-agency scandal, but if you are (as Grover does) Shurtleff would necessarily be worth more than a mere mention.   Given his career path, I suppose it&#8217;s much easier to direct the outrage at a legislator who is in no position give you a job like the A.G.  </p>
<p>The truth is that brain off does not begin to describe Grover.  His favorite pastime is to join the dogpile of any scandal with his half-baked facts, analysis and pious sermons.  I don&#8217;t know anyone who takes him seriously.  Furthermore he is incredibly thin-skinned.  I wrote a response to his article and he had it taken down.  He&#8217;s great at dishing it out, but a coward when it comes to taking it. </p>
<p>Two points by the way:<br />
1. Grover is no longer a libertarian.  He&#8217;s a pro-illegal immigration, pro-gay marriage, new age/moderate Republican.  Shocking isn&#8217;t it? </p>
<p>2. The picture you have of him on this article&#8217;s header must be 10 years old.  He&#8217;s now a disheveled, fat, slob.</p>
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		<title>By: Twitted by tomgrover</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-741</link>
		<dc:creator>Twitted by tomgrover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 05:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-741</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was Twitted by tomgrover [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was Twitted by tomgrover [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk T. Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-740</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk T. Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-740</guid>
		<description>Have you seen this??

http://steveu.com/blog/2009/06/division-of-securities-audit.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you seen this??</p>
<p><a href="http://steveu.com/blog/2009/06/division-of-securities-audit.html" rel="nofollow">http://steveu.com/blog/2009/06/division-of-securities-audit.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-737</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-737</guid>
		<description>Hi Rick. I appreciate all that you are doing in fighting the good battle and am grateful for the example you&#039;re setting in working so diligently in trying to hold the ninnies in government accountable for their actions. Where would I go to find the full audit that was done on the Utah State Department of Commerce as mentioned in the post above?

Thank you,

Trent Jessee</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rick. I appreciate all that you are doing in fighting the good battle and am grateful for the example you&#8217;re setting in working so diligently in trying to hold the ninnies in government accountable for their actions. Where would I go to find the full audit that was done on the Utah State Department of Commerce as mentioned in the post above?</p>
<p>Thank you,</p>
<p>Trent Jessee</p>
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		<title>By: Ammon</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-736</link>
		<dc:creator>Ammon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-736</guid>
		<description>Here is another example of brain-off, mouth open (or at least keyboard busy.)

http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=2640&amp;go=4

I don&#039;t mean to bring you down with negativity, or anything.  I just read this and thought you would get a good chuckle out of someone else pontificating with their brain off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is another example of brain-off, mouth open (or at least keyboard busy.)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=2640&amp;go=4" rel="nofollow">http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=2640&amp;go=4</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to bring you down with negativity, or anything.  I just read this and thought you would get a good chuckle out of someone else pontificating with their brain off.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.rickkoerber.com/2009/06/29/brain-off-mouth-open-tom-grovers-article-misses-the-point/350/comment-page-1#comment-734</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rickkoerber.com/?p=350#comment-734</guid>
		<description>I heart government. Yay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heart government. Yay.</p>
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